Posts by Justitia Themis

26

My Daughter Just Graduated From College!

by GoingGoingGone in

she was about 13 or 14 when i first started having serious doubts about the wts.

when i informed her of my doubts a couple years later, she took the information and ran with it.... she never looked back.

i told her she could be whatever she wanted to be if she only worked hard enough.

Justitia Themis

Congratulations to you GGG and your daughter.

123

Why The Hell Do People Defend Israel?

by Blue Grass in

first i see a lot of americans defending israel's execution of at least 9 peacekeepers and the attempted murder of several others.

now people are calling helen thomas a bigot?

the most evil and bigoted people live in israel.

Justitia Themis

Obama Promises $400 Million Aid Package for the Palestinians

We give 3 BILLION annually to "poor" Israel, and we have done so for years!!!!!

123

Why The Hell Do People Defend Israel?

by Blue Grass in

first i see a lot of americans defending israel's execution of at least 9 peacekeepers and the attempted murder of several others.

now people are calling helen thomas a bigot?

the most evil and bigoted people live in israel.

Justitia Themis

I am not very good with politics but on another forum they are discussing this too and someoen brought up "all the UN resolutions against Israel", what does that mean?

I don't follow politics but has there been any brought against Israel and if yes how many and for what?

There are approximately 42 UN resolutions condeming Israel for international violations of law, human rights etc., for everything from their pre-emptive war of 1967 to the 2008 Gazan war.

One of the things that really irritates the Arab/Muslim world is the U.S.'s hypocrisy in such things as demanding that Saddam IMMEDIATELY obey U.N. decrees/sanctions while at the same time giving Israel a free pass. IT IS NOT THAT THEY DEFEND SADDAM; it is the U.S.'s hypocrisy that angers them and justifiably they feel that the U.S. can NOT be an honest broker in the Middle East. We have lost all our moral high ground by ALWAYS defending Israel regardless of how badly she acts.

123

Why The Hell Do People Defend Israel?

by Blue Grass in

first i see a lot of americans defending israel's execution of at least 9 peacekeepers and the attempted murder of several others.

now people are calling helen thomas a bigot?

the most evil and bigoted people live in israel.

Justitia Themis

the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq

I did see one more thing...Saddam and the Kurds. Saddam got his gas from the French with Reagan's full knowledge. It was part of Reagan's "tilt" policy wherein he ( and Israel) feared Iran more than Iraq, so even though to signed onto the UN's neutrality agreement, they funneled intelligence (sattelite photographs) and dual-use technology to Saddam (despite the State Depts. objections) VP Bush pressured EXIM's president (his college bud) go give them loans, and provided them CCC credits to purchase U.S. agricultural products (Agriculture lobbyists).

1988, the US secretly provided assistance to Saddam in his chemical warfare campaign against the Iranian army (US Lt. Col. Francona and DIA). When Saddam used the gas against the Kurds, they were in Iraq and knew about it. "The American DIA officers neither condoned nor condemned the chemical weapons, though some were appaled at the civilian deaths. They were aware and explained to me later, that Saddam was adding chemical "fires" to the [military] plans they either reviewed or discussed. Their reporting to Washington on the Iraqi chemical weapons program amplified what the Reagan administration had known sincde 1983--the Iraq was making extensive use of poison gas." Patrick Tyler, A World of Trouble, p. 338. When an outcry arose in Congress, DICK CHENEY, Republican whip, was able to block calls for santions. GOOOO DICKY!!!!

"At the time, the Reagan strategy was regarding as realpolitik, but as time passed, it was apparent that Reagan and his top aides had rationalized their involvement with a client state that was blatantly employing weapons of mass destruction against its own people and against Iran. Of all the policy makers who were involved, only Prince Bandar [Saudi] has publicly expressed any regret...Looking back, Bandar said simply, "This was not my proudest moment..We let humanity down." Ibid., p. 338.

Of all involved...ONLY THE BACKWARD ARAB HAS THE BALLS TO ADMIT COMPLICITY AND GUILT. :) Often times, the US. is guilty of spreading something else that is really stinky...in addition to "democracy." :)

123

Why The Hell Do People Defend Israel?

by Blue Grass in

first i see a lot of americans defending israel's execution of at least 9 peacekeepers and the attempted murder of several others.

now people are calling helen thomas a bigot?

the most evil and bigoted people live in israel.

Justitia Themis

I’ll take a shot at BTS’s bullet points. J He does use facts; unfortunately, he uses them like JWs use them: selectively, emotionally, and without background or perspective.

1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koranimals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

While the OCCUPIED territories might not have belonged specifically to the Palestinians, they did belong to other countries. That is why UN242 condemned Israel’s violation of international law and demanded that they return the land. No, Israel has not always sought peace; they seek regional hegemony to the detriment of others, and with the US’s military backing, they have achieved that by being an illegal nuclear power. They “make the desert bloom” by stealing water from others, including the Gazans and those on the West Bank. Israel has been ruled in violation of Article 43 and Article 55 of the 1907 Hague Regulations, Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Article 6 of the UN Convention o the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses because of their strategic use of water.

2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

Before the West became involved, Jews and Palestinians in the region lived in peace and BOTH called themselves Palestinians. In 1914, there were approximately 66,000 Jews in the region and 570,000 Arabs. Herzl, Weizmann, and Ben-Gurion gave birth to political Zionism which led to an increase in Jewish immigration to the area. Due to the destabilizing effect, the British adopted the White Paper of 1939 which limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 ONLY (over five years) and prohibited them from buying land outside of certain areas. After WW2, Europe and America didn’t want to deal with a lot of unemployed, sick Jews AND they felt guilty over the Nazis, AND there was a Christian religious movement predicting that the Jews getting a homeland would predicate Armageddon (Bible Students were one such group); therefore; the West encouraged immigration, which overwhelmed the region and destabilized it.

Such an action would be like a hundreds of thousands of Canadians immigrating to the heart of New York asserting a right to it from before our Independence and the world sanctioning it. We would probably not “acknowledge” the Canadian right to exist as a nation in New York either. If the world amassed against us, as the world amassed against the Arabs, that might in hindsight be a mistake.

As far as the Jews historical right to be there…residency in the area goes back to the Egpytian-like peoples of 3000 B.C. and the Jews inhabited the area for only 352 years all those thousands of years. Even the Jews don’t assert a historical right to the land; they assert A DIVINE RIGHT TO THE LAND (Old Testament).

3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

Lebanon is made of Maronite Christians, Muslims and Jews. THE CIA overthrew the demotic Mossadiq and supported the demonic Shah; that led to the revolution and led to fundamentalism there. Most recently, the Bush administration undermined the moderates and the move towards peace, which led to the present hardliner government. So again, while your facts may be correct, there are several pages that SHOULD be written on the political back story of how and why those governments remain in power and the U.S.’ involvement in keeping them in power. J

However, the discussion is Israel, not other Arab countries.

4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

726,000 Arabs fled OR WERE DEPORTED from Palestine during the war of 1948 war. The Geneva Conventions, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political rights establishes the right of peoples who flee the violence of war to return to their properties. Again, I’m not understanding your proclivity to write about how Jews are treated in other Arab countries. The issue is specific to Palestine, the Palestinians and Jews/Israel. With that being said, Jews are hated in Arab lands for all the above referenced reasons. There is a dearth of freedom of religion in Arab lands, but…again…we have to look at the fundamentalist regimes, HOW they garnered power, and WHO (U.S.) helped to put them there. Our meddling has definitely hurt them AND us.

5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

A majority of the Palestinians that fled did so to other Arab lands, such as Lebanon and Syria, which led to destabilization in those countries. Israel has even agreed to monetarily compensate Arab countries for the costs of absorbing them, BUT they don’t offer much money AND they want the Palestinians to release them from their liability under Article 11 in return for the money.

6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

Incorrect. SOME of th disputed area are back to their original owners, Egypt and Jordan through separate agreements. The infamous “Green Line” is the rest of the territory, and per international law, it belongs to the Paletinians and the Israeli’s are military occupiers.

7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

The security fence adds several hours to what should be a 15-20 minute trip. And yes, it was built in response to terrorist attacks, and it has been successful in reducing them. But, it is not a long-term solution. Terrorism has a rather recent history in the region, with the Jews (Begin and his Irgun militia that bombed the King David hotel KILLING THE BRITISH, and other Jewish militias that target American and British personnel). Assymetrical warefare (terrorism) the the warefare of the militarily weak and those disspossesed. As Eshkol predicted following the 6-day war, “ Military victory will not end the conflict, because the Arabs will still be there. Will we always live by our sword?” Until the Israelis agree to a fair solution, they are willingly exchanging their security for land.

8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

I’m concerned about all people. And I feel Arab governments, the US, the UN and the rest of the world all must be part of the solution. Unlike you, I do not see a narrow, one-sided solution, nor do I see one group as “the enemy” and one group as the “good guy.” There is plenty of blame to go around, and the includes the U.S., Britain, and the UN.

9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

Lots to talk about here…not going to address everything. Black September? The assassinations resulted from destabilization. Those Palestinian’s who fled the ’67 war settled in Jordan, and destabilized it. Such a phenomenon is precisely why Europe and the U.S. didn’t want the large amount of unemployed, refugee Jews settling in their lands post WW2.

The Israeli’s join with Gamayel (Christian leader) in Jordan. Israel will use its U.S. provided military might to internally destabilize another country by offering to bring a minority group to power in exchange for their help in “getting” Arafat, who was living with the displaced (from Palestine) Palestinian’s in refugee camps. Israel used ILLEGAL CLUSTER BOMBs provided by the U.S. to massacre innocents. Golda Meir (of “there is no such thing as a Palestinian” fame, since SHE didn’t recognized their right to exist) authorized Operation Grapes of Wrath to get Arafat.

All the things you mentioned in your paragraph do concern me. I just envisage a more holistic religious and political solution than do you, because I see the “problem” more broadly…and a whole lot less emotionally.

10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

This is too simplistic to even bother addressing. “Peace” would have come if we had just lain down arms to the Red Coats. “Peace” would have come if the Muslims would just have submitted to genocide in Kosovo. Peace will not come until the world develops the political will to back down Israel and the Palestinians make some tough concessions.

11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

Lots of emotional nonsense in this one too, but in response to Meir’s quote…Haaretz recently published the results of an survey in which 49.5% of Israeli high schoolers report that they don’t feel Arabs should be given equal rights. If there were a U.S. poll that said 49.5% of US white youths did not feel blacks should have equal rights, it would make international news. These youth no doubt reflect the views of their parents, and it speaks to the bigoted view Israelis have towards all Arabs. Israel cannot be counted on to defend human rights in ANY proposed solution.

108

Say NO to a mosque at Ground Zero!!

by Scully in

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjs0novt3x4&feature=digest.

Justitia Themis

Allowing this so called "Church or place of worship/mosque" would be similar to allowing Headquarters for the KKK in the middle of Harlem.

Nonsense. A similar analogy to yours is to say that no churches should be built in Harlem, because the KKK were Christians ( and used the Bible and their Churches to support their anti-black beliefs); therefore all Churches are offensive to blacks.

The people that attacked the United States practiced a twisted form of Islam, just like the KKK practiced a twisted form of Christianity.

I don't agree with the mosque for many of the same reasons as the moderate Muslims described in the Boston Globe article; however, your analogy is way off.

108

Say NO to a mosque at Ground Zero!!

by Scully in

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjs0novt3x4&feature=digest.

Justitia Themis

Someone mentioned on the prior page that moderate Muslims are not speaking up. I think they often do, but most don't listen. This is a problem I have discussed repeatedly with my Muslim friends. Since there is no one pope-like "leader" in Islam, it is hard to get out the message. They need to take a page from the Jewish Lobby's playbook, and become much more organized.

This is from the link I posted earlier. ...sounds like very balanced reasoning to me. :)

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/

Of particular interest are the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam.

One such individual is Zuhdi Jasser, a physician, US Navy veteran, and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy.

Jasser reminisced last week about his family’s history of building mosques in the heartland communities where they lived. His parents, Syrian immigrants to the United States, helped create the Fox Valley Islamic Center in Neenah, Wis., in 1980. “This was during the Iranian hostage crisis,’’ he recalled, “and some of the local residents wanted the Zoning Commission to prevent the mosque from going forward.’’ But the commissioners gave their blessing to the project, and the modest mosque — the construction budget was just $80,000 — became part of the neighborhood. Later the family later moved to western Arkansas, where they joined with others to create the Islamic Center of Fort Smith. As recently as March, Jasser came out in support of Muslims in Sheboygan, Wis., whose plans for a new place of worship were meeting with vocal resistance.

But he adamantly opposes the ground zero mosque.

“For us, a mosque was always a place to pray, to be together on holidays — not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement,’’ Jasser said. “Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.’’ To use that space for Muslim outreach, he argues, is “the worst form of misjudgment.’’

Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington.

Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others.’’

Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi native who founded the Institute for Gulf Affairs and is an advocate for civil rights and religious freedom in the Middle East, hopes for the best from Cordoba House. “A mosque should be a good thing,’’ he told me. But he worries about the number of Americans who may be “hurt and upset’’ by the project, and wonders whether a mosque is really the best thing for Muslims to build so close to ground zero. Why not something less emotionally charged, he asks — a social-service agency, perhaps, or an assisted living center for the elderly?

Muslims must take the feelings of Americans into account, Ahmed contends. He cites no less an Islamic authority than the Imam Ali, Mohammed’s influential son-in-law. “Reconciliation of your differences,’’ says Imam Ali in the collection of teachings known as the Peak of Eloquence, “is more worthy than all prayers and fasting.’’

108

Say NO to a mosque at Ground Zero!!

by Scully in

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjs0novt3x4&feature=digest.

Justitia Themis

I have not read the book, but I am familiar with its thesis. Palmtree67, I appreciate your response, unfortunately, the fact that you refer to "Sharia Law" as if it is one form of law tells me that you have a surface knowledge of Islam.

Each version of Islam has a different form of Sharia law with different intepretations. Some for example say that the prophets statements regarding headcovering apply to today. Others say that those statements applied to only back then, because during that time period the umma was starving, their clothes were threadbare and women's bodies were visible through their clothing. Same verses; different interpretations.

That is why some Muslim women cover their heads, while others do not. Just like some Christians take blood, while others do not. But...people don't write books about moderate Muslims who practice moderate Sharia. :)

108

Say NO to a mosque at Ground Zero!!

by Scully in

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjs0novt3x4&feature=digest.

Justitia Themis

SEE!! Mary is STILL preaching "THE TRUTH." :)

In response to building a church in Saudi...

you can’t build a church is Saudi. You see…the Arabian Peninsula was home to this little, deviant Muslim sect called the Wahabi’s. They thought they were the ONLY ones who practice Islam correctly (visualize JWs), and they called their Muslim brothers apostate. They even destroyed the tombs of the prophets in Mecca (except for Mohammed’s), because they thought other Muslims might be praying to them. AND they attacked and killed those other Muslims..because they were apostates.

So…the Ottoman’s stepped in and stopped them, but the the Ottoman Empire fell to the West, and then things got off track. This guy Saud wanted to unite the tribes to establish his kingdom . So he promised the Wahabi’s that if they violently cleansed the area and helped him, they would be THE national religion…and they are. The British/US (oil) supported Saud and didn’t really care how he got/kept power as long as they had access to the oil. The British and US reasoned who CARES about the Wahabi’s and the autocratic King Saud…we just want to oil…what can they ever do to us…

Osama Bin Laden is Wahabi. It sure would have been nice if the Ottoman’s (Turkey) had been allowed to stay in power…

29

Am I the only one who thought the GB was 100% correct when they were a JW?

by NiceDream in

jw
friends

a few months ago i began researching my doubts on the internet about the wtbts and i came across a bunch of crazy facts.

this helped me realize this isn't "the truth.".

when i was growing up, i believed the society was always right, and we needed to obey what was in the publications.

Justitia Themis

It was always a bad fit for me (born in). I was never a religous exclusivist, doubted the math of only 144,000, didn't believe the heavenly calling was done, openly questioned 1975 (and got into a lot of trouble), actually did the math about 8 years ago proving to myself that population growth was far outstripping the preaching...I even averaged how many people per hour were dying for every hour Jehovah delayed Armageddon (assuming only JWs survived), etc.

So...no...I didn't think the GB was very correct about much of anything.